QUOTE: “The progress of the intellect is to the clearer vision of causes, which neglects surface differences. To the poet, to the philosopher, to the saint, all things are friendly and sacred, all events profitable, all days holy, all men divine.” -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Denver trading Kyle Orton?
I’ve spent as much time in Denver the past few months as I’ve spent at my home on the Jersey Shore. With each visit, I’ve been able to watch practice, talk football with the coaches and discuss their players, their schemes and the changes they have planned for the coming season. The common theme -- and perhaps the only theme -- in Denver has always been, “We’re trying to build a competitive team that will be tough in tough times.” They’ve always been firmly behind quarterback Kyle Orton but have been very careful to make sure no one has a free pass on being competitive and earning the job.
The trade talk surrounding Orton before the draft was not real -- nor would have been realistic. Think about it. The Broncos had no idea they would be able to draft Florida quarterback Tim Tebow in March or April, so how could they trade Orton without a viable proven solution on the roster? I realize Brady Quinn was on the roster, but very few believed he was a proven solution. (By the way, I love discussing, or even just mentioning, the former Browns quarterback because I always receive a rude, and I mean extremely rude, email from one of his supporters. I get such pleasure in deleting his email — before reading -- so keep sending.) So why would the Broncos even consider trading Orton this spring? It just doesn’t make sense.
However, what does make sense is to keep the competitive pressure on Orton, make him fight for his job and let his true colors come to the fore. Players often tell you who they really are in terms of competitiveness, yet executives or coaches never want to believe them. We see this more often in the NBA, when some great players disappear at crunch time (insert Vince Carter here), but coaches keep believing they’ll find the magic and break out of their supposed slump. In reality, there is no slump that is just the player. In scouting, you must learn the difference between a player who works hard and a player who competes. Some can work hard in their preparation during the week, but when the lights go on, they disappear. Others won’t work very hard in their preparation, but on Sunday, they compete like no other — they’ll do whatever it takes to win. Some might have both qualities, but the key in scouting is to make sure you can clearly differentiate.
Who is the real Kyle Orton? Is he able to handle the competitive challenges he faces, or is he going to back down? If he can handle the challenge, the Broncos can believe in him -- if he can’t, the Broncos must believe still in him, but at least they’ll have options. Orton must prove to his coaches, his teammates and most of all himself that he wasn’t satisfied with his play last season. He must re-establish himself with a competitive nature that won’t be satisfied until he has led the team deep into the playoffs. He must show that he can work hard and be competitive on game day. Many might view Orton as an overachiever, but in reality, the reason he has never reached the level of contract he greatly desires is more because he’s an underachiever. At times, he falls short in the competitive arena — but now he has the pressure on his back to make sure he keeps competing. By all their moves this offseason, the Broncos are in position to see who’s “the real” Kyle Orton.
I’m giddy
To borrow a phrase from the Sports Guy, Bill Simmons, I’m giddy. Giddy because my beloved 76ers have hired the right man to coach the team. If you’re a young coach, or want to be a coach, you must watch the Doug Collins press conference as he breaks down the team and talks about the coaching profession. He was humble, prepared, knowledgeable and ready to achieve.
Collins has learned from his past mistakes, and he has used the time off preparing for his next job — not complaining about lost opportunities. It was so refreshing to hear him talk, and whether you’re a 76ers fan or not, a basketball fan or not, you should listen to Collins as he talks about being a coach.
I am giddy squared.
Follow me on Twitter: michaelombardi
Nice, well thought out article. Thanks for being a voice of sanity amidst a sea of sensationalism.
@Nate B: What specifically about the arguments in this article do you disagree with? Oh, that's right. You stopped paying attention to the article the moment you realized it was written based on different underlying assumptions than your blind subscription to the notion that since the Denver front office makes decisions that you disagree with and that do not make sense to you, they must be stupid, irrational, or both.
collins is not a great hire. everyone assumes he's an awesome coach simply because they think he sounds smart on TV (which i would disagree with, i don't like him that much as an analyst). He's just another decidedly average coach that doesn't make any real difference in either direction. All he knows how to do is give it to his star player over and over again and expect him to figure something out - see Jordan, Michael and Hill, Grant. He'll make the pace incredibly slow (which by the way is not in the best interest of this sixers team) and simply call a lot of set plays designed to isolate his best offensive player. i hope philly fans are excited for 50 evan turner isos per game.
Kyle Orton's lack of mobility in the pocket as well as his inability to throw the deep ball, either because he can't or because he won't, will always keep him from being nothing more than a solid game manager. He is who we all thought he was.
Tebow, on the other hand is different, he might not be pretty, but he has that "want to" to get things done. No one at this point knows what is going to happen with him but I think you have to believe he is going to find a way to be a success in the NFL.
@Justin: My issues are right here: "The trade talk surrounding Orton before the draft was not real -- nor would have been realistic. Think about it." That statements reads as if it is fact when it's clearly the authors opinion and he should say so. If I had more time, I would be able to look up articles from last year where plenty of people, maybe even Lombardi himself, were using similar arguments about how a potential Cutler trade would never happen. This is obviously a different situation, but I don't go to NFL insider pages to read articles written subjectively without any in-depth information/analysis.
So he's telling us that there is no way the Broncos were shopping Orton because he doesn't think it makes sense, that Orton needs to step up this season and face the pressure, and that Quinn hasn't done anything at the NFL level yet but has enough potential that he might be able to push Orton for PT if things don't go well. Nowhere in there do I see any of the insight that NFP is known for.
Collins won 53% of his regular season games and 39% of his playoff games.
Hope you are giddy about all of the perfectly mediocre 43-39 seasons in the 76ers future.
How much of the toughness was a result of bad defensive play? Nolan was trying to track that stuff positively. The Broncos removed him as well, this is all McDaniels making now.
He took a counterpuncher and turned into them a rope-a-dope heavyweight. They don't presently have the defensive ability to take shots from opponents all game. Maybe the chemistry and youth matches their experience in the secondary now?
They lack the knock out ability of a heavyweight at this time as well. This is a system/scheme team that will need to rely upon opponents making their share of mistakes. That isn't the kind of team to take over in the playoffs, they need to be a team that creates the opportunities by aggression. They look to aim at perhaps splitting West games? The way the AFC West plays right now maybe they can rely upon the other team's inability to execute consistently.
That isn't going to get past the upper echelon in the post season.
"I think you have to believe he (Tebow) is going to find a way to be a success in the NFL"
I agree completely.
I don't know if he will be the next Steve Young or the next McNair, but to write him off before he has even gotten a crack at it makes absolutely no sense to me.
As for Orton...
He'll be better than last year. That's to me the only logical conclusion, he is in his second season (in a complicated system), he knows his teammates better and he has some competition behind him to push him in a do or die year.
Maybe the absence of Marshall will make it a little more difficult this year, but on the other hand now he has to spread the ball around. I felt a big problem last year was that he didn't make good decisions after his first read (Marshall) was covered, which resulted in a lot of misplaced balls to Royal. Now defences can't focus on taking away the no 1 reciever, cus there isn't any no 1.
Orton will start this year, unless he has a total melt down. He won't win a lot of games for the Broncos, but more importantly he won't loose many either.
Tebow is someone I wanted to see make it in a place that would feature his strengths and still challenge him to develop new levels of game. That was a good selection, IMO, in terms of potential.
They still have to make certain the team has a true number one guy at the wideout spot, someone who makes the other teams rotate coverage predictably. Without that they could see stats trend down on a steep graph.
Tebo could be that heavyweight guy, the one who can take a game on his back. The other item for him, playing in cold weather, should not be the downfall people expect because of his mobility and improvisation skill. He can still create under circumstances not entirely planned for.
That doesn't remove the fact that Denver is still trying to assert an identity, after starting off well they lost that sense of who they are and what they do to win games. McDaniels has a plan to do that, does he have all the people he needs at this time?
In their Super seasons they cheated the cap to add talent. TO is still a free agent?
Lombardi,
Thanks for this! I am one of those Broncos fans (there are more of us in this regard than you might think) that believes in Kyle Orton. He can improve and I think he will take advantage of the rich resources around him. Yes, he should be pushed to be the best he can and I honestly believe, come training camp, he will be everything the Broncos hoped he would be. I am not worried about the potential genesis of the Tebow era, but I'd like it to be pushed aside for a couple of years. Orton has the talent and I believe he has the work ethic and heart to do well for the Broncos. Thanks again, Lombardi! As for Collins, I want him to be the color analyst of a Phoenix Suns victory tonight. Down with the Lakers!
From a lifelong 30+ year Bronco fan; I hate Kyle Orton.
Was Orton on the block? Well Cutler wasn't either at first right ;)
Second year head coach about to trade out second starting QB in less than two years? Perhaps Josh doesn't admire Bill as much as he does John Gruden ;)
The real Kyle Orton stood up years ago. Take it from someone who watched him play for years with the Bears. Who is he? He's a guy, that's all. A great teammate, a great guy in the locker guy, but a limited talent at QB. To go deep in the playoffs with him you would need a top five D. Do the Broncos have that?
In my humble opinion,it was a mistake to draft Tebow,and Orton can be the guy,with a solid team around him.
To me,(a Bears fan) He did well with the opportunities he had.
If you remember,he played very well before the ankle injury.
It was a year I thought he would shine,out from under the shadow of the Grossman fiasco.
He did play well before the injury,and came back much too soon,I believe.
Denver fans,one year doesn't tell the tale,some stability will help the QB situation.
Sadly with the Tebow bandwagon reaching a head of steam,I doubt you will see it for years to come.
ML?
That's not a Browns fan sending you rude e-mails about Quinn, that's Charlie Weiss!
The Donkeys QB situation is as much in the air as any teams in the NFL - do we like Orton, come on, who doesn't - the guy's a gamer, an everyman that played well in his first season in Denver until the Skins game when his ankle got CRUNCHED - after that the limited mobility he possesses just went away, and so did his ability to damage defenses...Tebow may be the man, he may not - give McDaniels credit, he's rolling the dice on a spread offense working in the NFL with the best QB to have played the spread at the college level - this will if nothing else be interesting...will he take Orton's job this year, maybe - that IMO depends mostly upon Orton, if he's healthy and a second year with the playbook, then he's got to produce - period; otherwise, the other two are going to be chomping at the bit to get in for damn sure...
Every player has a certain value. Sometimes a player like Ordinary Orton is undervalued in a place like Chicago, so a team like Denver takes him off of Chicago's hands. Sometimes the same player is overvalued. Personally, I think that Orton has almost exactly the same value as Jay Cutler. Neither one of them will ever take a good team to the Super Bowl, but neither one is a complete throwaway. Lots of starting QBs are worse.
Denver is hoping to trade Overpriced Orton after his career year of 8-8, now while his stock is out of the basement. Nobody has taken the bait so far. Denver should bide its time and keep the price high, because someone somewhere will get injured, and then Orton can actually help some otherwise excellent team reach 10-6 this year.
Thanks Micheal for a great article. I like Kyle Orton and believe he is the guy. I also like the fact that we are consistantly underrated. It's going to be a great year.
Mr. Murder;
Just because McDaniels suckered your Bears into buying the Cutler Interception Machine doesn't mean you should put the blinders on and blame him for everything. Shanny left a very disorganized and confused team because of his lousy drafting.
Also, the Redskins cheat the cap constantly. Just because they lose all the time doesn't mean that you should only pick on teams that used it and won.
Bear Market;
Orton is better than Cutler, period. For all of Cutler's talent he has never won anything or had a winning record since High School. There are winners and there are losers. Cutler is not a winner.
Mr. Murder;
Just because McDaniels suckered your Bears into buying the Cutler Interception Machine doesn't mean you should put the blinders on and blame him for everything. Shanny left a very disorganized and confused team because of his lousy drafting.
Also, the Redskins cheat the cap constantly. Just because they lose all the time doesn't mean that you should only pick on teams that used it and won.
Bear Market;
Orton is better than Cutler, period. For all of Cutler's talent he has never won anything or had a winning record since High School. There are winners and there are losers. Cutler is not a winner.
Cutler played at Vandy with a group of people most likely to be team doctors or surgeons, or the ones negotiating the next labor deal or gaming rights. That team was actually competitive and entertaining.
McDaniels suckered the Bears into trading for Cutler? I believe this is what they call revisionist history.
(By the way, I love discussing, or even just mentioning, the former Browns quarterback because I always receive a rude, and I mean extremely rude, email from one of his supporters. I get such pleasure in deleting his email — before reading -- so keep sending.)
That's hilarious -
The problem with running a spread offense is that you need WR's. The Broncos have Royal and Stokley. TO might be a short-term fix, but I don't know if McHoodie will buy that he's morphed into a team player. He's already had experience with a prima donna receiver, and we all know how that worked out.
Wow, ignorance knows no bounds!
Jay Cutler is a highly entertaining quarterback! I loved his .500 seasons. Close wins, blow out losses, and no playoffs.
Drafting Tim Tebow isn't rational? To whom? Is Kyle Orton the long term answer? Tim Tebow at #24 is a lunatic move when KYLE ORTON is your starting quarterback AND you are coming off a 2-8 finish thanks in large part to the lack of heart to score TDs in the red zone?
The Broncos are changing the culture from a me-first mentality to a team-first mentality. For an organization to go through that kind of upheaval and see NO DROP OFF in W/L production is pretty amazing to me.
The Tim Tebow haters just don't know what their talking about, nor do that have a clue about what it takes to build a football team. Gotta love the knee jerkers. All conjecture, no facts. I roll my eyes every time I read that drivel.
You can't run a true spread in the NFL. The defensive backs are too good. The collleges that run it successfully - OK, FL, etc., get the best receivers and they get separation because college DBs are the ones who generally weren't good enough to be WRs. I mean, you get DBs who make it to the pros, of course. But the best offenses always have more playmakers than the best Ds.
Running the spread in Denver? I'll believe it when I see it.
Oh, one other thing, you'll get your QB killed. And that included Tebow.
To BearMarket
The spread will be run in Denver, believe it allready. Will it be a "true" spread, who cares? McDaniels will run as much as the opposing defence will allow him to.
In 2007, the Patriots (with McDaniels) played from the shotgun more than 50% of the time.
McDaniels loves the spread, he used in NE and he will use it in Denver. But he needs the right components to do it, and that's what he is slowly forming his team into. A step on the way is Tebow, but maybe not this year.
McD loves the spread + he drafted the most succeful spread QB of all time = The Broncos will run the spread
Trading away Marshall is most likely a mistake, Mr Murder points out if the O can't predict or read the D correctly, O will suffer and this is true w/any pro sport. The best O's can dictate to the D or at least predict what the D will be doing and achieve success. What will DEN do, dink and dunk? throw over the top? to who? they've also let go their best pass catching TE, Orton will be reduced to improvising on the run, if the run O can't be consistent and at this point, I'd play the opponent D to stuff the run and dare DEN to throw over the top.
Orton is a stopgap option, somebody to man the position until they get/develop the guy they really want. I didn't think Tebow was any better than a 3rd or 4th round talent, but he's obviously the heir apparent. They should wait until training camp to see it Quinn can beat Orton out. We really don't know yet if Quinn can play because Cleveland keeps switching QBs back and forth. Call me crazy, but it wouldn't surprise me if Tebow became the starter in 2010. Expect the unexpected with McDaniels.
"I don't know if it will definitely speed up the process, but it definitely can't hurt," Jets owner Woody Johnson told Mehta. "That might be an indirect benefit. It's hard to quantify what the value will be for a naming rights sponsor.”
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May 25, 2010
11:12 AM
Anytime your argument begins with the phrase "Think about it," you're clearly not providing any in-depth information. The fact that Denver traded up in the first round to take Tebow also throws any concept of rationally thinking about what the Denver front office would do right out the window.