Diner morning news: Pats load up on defense

Are you sure Leigh Bodden specializes in Cover 2? When he played for the Lions last year, he seemed a bit lost in the defense. I think he's more of a man-to-man cornerback. He only played on the Lions for a year. Before that, he was with Romeo Crennel's Browns.

Burgess does seem like another player who is going to be revitalized on the Patriots. And for two mid-draft picks too? Jeesh, the Patriots sure know how to make moves.

Hey Mike,

Do you think Burgess will play better than Jason taylor this year? I think this is a huge pickup and the patriots don't really have any weaknesses on defense anymore... although i still think they should add another LB or 2 for depth.... because they always seem to have injuries.

Rookies and castoffs in the secondary and a very old LB corps doesn't impress me. This team played a very weak schedule last year. The AFC East was NOT a strong division and still isn't. This team's sucess will come from Brady, Moss, Welker, and new addition Joey Galloway. That defense isn't going to win them many games, but I also don't think that it's going to lose them many either.

I think it's a good deal for both teams. Although I have heard that the Pats gave up a 3rd in 2010 and a conditional 4th in 2010 with that pick sliding to a 5th if the Patriots aquire one.

Regardless it works for both teams, the Raiders get rid of somebody who has wanted a new contract since you were trying to help get one in Oakland and the Patriots get their situational pass rusher. I think what will make this trade good or bad is that big IF at the start of your 3rd to last paragraph. The last two years Burgess has missed time due to injury and he's not getting any younger. It will be interesting to see how well he plays this year.

Mike. Mike. Mike. The Patriots are going to have their ass handed to them when the Titans come to town.

Love you Lombardi but Belichick and Brady could be taking a dump in the middle of the field while holding each other's hand and you (and the rest of the media) would say the Pats look good.

They may have improved but I think PIttsburgh is the team to beat this year. If the Steelers can ran the ball this season pencil them in AFC Championship game.

Jason, not a very old LB corps at all really. Adalius is 31, Mayo and Guyton are both 23, Pierre Woods is 27, Burgess is 31. Really the only old part is Bruschi and he won't be getting that many of the snaps with Guyton around. Bodden is not a washed up player because of 1 crappy year with the worst team in history. I think the pats may have improved their Defense, but will miss the Leadership and intensity of Rodney Harrison. The offense has potential to be 2007-esque.

AFC is week lets see they had 2 teams at 11-5 one 9-7 and one 8-8 yeah real weak. I think Jason needs to stop drinkin mom's cough meds

@Phil: "Love you Lombardi but Belichick and Brady could be taking a dump in the middle of the field while holding each other's hand and you (and the rest of the media) would say the Pats look good."

Thanks for the supremely insightful comment.

The fact is Patriots are indeed loaded this year and done pretty all a team can do to shore up its two weak spots (secondary and pass rush), and have some other rookies developing nicely (besides Butler), including Sebastian Vollmer, Ron Brace (who can line up as an end), and the undrafted Terrence Nunn.

And Pats also have THREE 2nd round picks next year.

Is he going to turn him into the pass rushing beast that Adalius Thomas has become???? Becuase then, I am afraid. A 31 year old DE, who put up 11.5 sacks in the last 24 games doesn't scare me. Neither does a guy who has never, ever played OLB ever, and has only been a rotational DE.

This is classic Pats bias media. They could do anything, anything, and the media, especially Mike, would fawn at them. They could go out tomorrow and pick up a 27 year old QB with a career 52.6 rating, and they would say "The Pats know something, they only pick up good players." Oh wait, they already did that in Andrew Walter. Believe me, as a Raider fan, the guy may be able to make all the throws, but so could Ryan Leaf. Walter sucks. The Pats have not won a super bowl in four years. They have blown two playoff games since. I think it is time to look at them without Pats Goggles, and see them for what they now are, the 2003-2004 Colts.

@JR

the division was weak. They all played the AFC West and NFC West, two of the worst divisions in football. They all piled up wins against crappy competition. Just an example, NE got 11 wins against: MIA, NYJ, BUF (2), STL, SF, SEA, KC, DEN, OAK, and ARZ. That's the definition of the pupu platter. Three teams that feasted on the same easy schedule, Arizona who admittedly did not show up for that snow game, and then six teams that went a combined 27-69. Yeah, real impressive.

And in true Belichick/Kraft form, not a negative word to the press on or off the record about NE's existing linebackers. And they can pull this off because they've got, what, 3 2nd round picks next year?

So what will happen, as happened with Rodney Harrison, Mike Vrabel, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, and I don't know how many others, is that Belichick will understand Burgess's skills better than his previous coaches, use him in a way he's likely to be successful, and he'll shine. He might not get big sack numbers, which BB thinks are overrated, but QBs sure won't have as much time. I'll bet you'll see a lot more interceptions instead.

I actually wonder whether other coaches don't like to trade their players to NE because of a fear BB will show them up this way. Remember when Brad Childress was crowing that he outmaneuvered BB to get Percy Harvin? Um.... sure, Brad. You think whatever you want to think.

With Brady healthy, the Pats were already the team to beat in the NFL. The media "bias" will always favor the teams and players that set the bar high based on previous accomplishments. Belichick and Brady will continue to get the benefit of the doubt, because year after year after year after year they produce results on the field of competition.

The only teams that get media love without doing something impressive on Sundays are the Cowboys and Jets.

@Daniel

You can only play the games your schedule says you play, and the reality is this "weak" division was clearly superior to the two other divisions they played last year. At worst that makes them a "mediocre" division.

The offense with Brady at QB will once again be prolific- look at the weapons. Moss, Welker, Ageless-Joey, Fred Taylor, a healthy and motivated Maroney, and a very good O-line that returns all starters.

We'll have to wait and see what the D brings, but on paper and in training camp, the defense looks vastly improved over last year's lot. The corners could hardly have been worse than Hobbes and O'Neil were last year, and Adalius Thomas got hurt mid-season, killing a pass rush that was already not a strength. And yet, they still won 11 games. Doubt them if you wish, but even Vegas believes the Pats will be a force to be reckoned with in 09.

What terrible uniformed comments following a solid article. The Pats LB corp is not old. In fact it has the best young player on Defense in the AFC in Jerod Mayo and Adalius Thomas is in his prime. Bruschi is old but he had 75 tackles in 13 games last year and 92 and 112 the previous two years. Point being he's still playing at a pretty high level and he's only going to be better with Mayo on his side this year. Burgess is now the 4th LB. So overall the LB's aren't old.

The CB's that will be starting are Shawn Springs and Leigh Bodden and the safeties are Merriweather 3rd year 1st rd pick and James Sanders. Chung and Butler are both 2nd rd picks that are the 1st backups in, unless Chung can swipe the starting safety from Sanders.

And as far as anyone saying the Pats played a weak schedule last year what does that matter? They played that weak schedule without Tom Brady and did pretty damn well.

It must be sad to watch the NFL every year and spend all your time hating on a great organization. Not respecting how dominant the Pats have been this decade is the same as not respecting how great the Cowboys were in the 90s or the 49ers in the 80s. If you love the game than appreciate greatness.

I can't wait until about week 10 when everyone is saying the Chargers are the best team in the NFL. Then they'll come to Foxboro for the playoffs and LOSE again.

Rumors of the Pats demise are greatly exaggerated. Deal with it!

The division is weak (like that even matters)...media bias...Pats Goggles...blah, blah, blah. The Steelers played in a divison w/ the embarrassingly pathetic Browns and Bengals. Didn't prevent them from winning two of the last four SB's. Division & strength of schedule, who cares? These guys have won 3 rings, have a slew of talent, have Brady returning....and Daniel acts as if they're the Chiefs trying to reach the .500 mark Talk to you in early February, shleprock.

id rather be the 2003-2004 colts than the 2003-2009 raiders

Ummm...what a surprise that a bitter and twisted raider fan is having another crack at Mike..come on Daniel why dont you defend the DBH pick again and let us all know that Al is just a misunderstood genius and that your unprecedented sequence of double digit losing seasons is all part of his master plan..lol..It just makes me laugh when raider fans accuse that media of bias yet none of them can see the forrest for the trees..I understand dedication to your team and I understand that at one time your owner and your organisation were a bench mark in the league but that time has long passed..

I agree the Pat's seem loaded and are making solid moves. However, while not playing in a super talented division, they are now playing in a super physical division. Instead of 6 relatively easy division games, now they have to play 6 very physical and brutal division games. Sure, they will probably win the division, but can see their days of deep playoff runs behind them as injuries mount late in seasons. The Jets, Dolphins, and Bills are no longer a sure 6 win base for the Pats either.

Burgess was an every down end at Oakland. Sapp's departure affected the run defense but when Warren was there Derrick put emphasis on controlling his gap, or at least taking up space there.

Derrick also played LB in college and was a position switch as a pro, so he has the background to play the hybrid end that can flex the position for Bill B. The thing may be avoiding a temptation to try doing too much with him, just let him be a pass rusher.

Wow, bringing up something totally unrelated to what I'm saying to make a point just becuase you have none yourself..... classic Pats fans. I never even brought up Oakland and compared them to the Pats. They are not a good team. I hated the DHB pick, but at least the guy is in camp, unlike that other WR.

There's nothing wrong with being the 2003-04 Colts. Obvously they were better than the 2003-2008 Raiders. I'm not arguing that. We'll be lucky to win 8 games this year. All I'm saying is that this acquisition is not goint to turn you into the 1989 49ers. The media can trump this up all they want, but he is not even the player Adalius Thomas was, and that sure as hell hasn't really helped your team. He is a above average player, and that is it. Sure, he will give the Pats a better pass rush, but that defense still has holes. He's not Julius Peppers, he's not going to mask a patchwork secondary, with and old corner in Springs, and Safeties that are all better run stoppers than pass coverage guys. Your team will have a very good offense. However, if anything will be your downfall, it will be the defense, just like the 2003-04 Colts.

@Rob, btw the "pathetic" Bengals were 11-5 in 2005. And they had a team that reached the AC title game in their division this year. Also, this team may have won three rings, but quite a long time ago, in NFL terms. How many people on the team were there for any of those super bowls. Brady, the O-Line, Watson, the D-Line, Bruschi. That's about it. This is a new team. The current greatest show on grass offense Patriots have accomplished the dubious feat of going 18-0 and losing to a 10-6 Giants team.

Love this site, but following up on CW's first comment, the Football Outsider's site, for example, had Bodden rated as one of the best cornerbacks in the league when he was with the Browns and one of the worst when he was with the Lions. Their theory was Bodden sucked as a Cover Two corner, which is why he was so bad in Detroit last year.

So if Bodden's going to a team that plays Cover Two, he wouldn't seem to be of much use to hem. But how much Cover Two do the Patriots play? I've never heard of their defense referred to as employing the Cover Two.

Good move from the Pats as usual. At least they didn't stand pat. Yeah I'd say they need pass rush help bad if they think TBC can make an impact. He was useless with us with the 49ERS. I think he had 1 sack, if any, the entire 2 seasons he was there. He has ZERO explosion is THE SLOWEST rush OLB I've ever seen. What our clueless ex-HC Nowin saw in him when he snagged him in FA I just don't get. He benefited from NE's dominating DL & other LB's when they were in their prime back then. In his 2nd season TBC was an afterthought & could feel he was going to get cut soon. He made ZERO impact except when he just so luckily happened to be at the right place when the ball fell to him in the end zone vs AZ in OT for the TD & W.

Mike - how do you think Burgess will transition to rush OLB in the 3-4?

That was my concern about the Niners going after him. Hate saying this but they have Belichick & he'll know EXACTLY how to use him & get the most out of him. Probably one of the best places Burgess could have found a home. Dunno NE's other LB's but right off the bat mixing him up with Mayo on the blitzes should be a good combo to start with providing Burgess could pass cover if he's held back. I believe he should be able to do the job vs the run.

How can you question this move? The Pats needed rush help & they went after him. Damn I'm being a suck-up but I also like Vader's, I mean Belichick's draft (Brace, Chung, & Butler) & also the FA acquiring of Taylor & Gallaway who both have plenty left in the tank WHEN USED PROPERLY!! Reminds me of our great Bill Walsh (....RIP Coach.) BB is the Walsh of this generation. Again I hate to admit it but they're all brilliant moves. The PATS are flat out freakin' loaded. The OL HAS TO play better & they should scheme to protect Brady more IMO.....AT LEAST FOR THIS YEAR to get his confidence & momentum back. Get him re-established. Obviously he's their #1 asset next to the HC.

Yes,

The Patriots do look good on paper, as much as it pains me to say this, but this is the NFL and since we're (thankfully!) bereft of BCS and mythical posturing, outcomes are decided on the field. We have no idea how Tom Brady will hold up once the season starts and New England's linebackers are still pretty weak, I think. Burgess is a really good player and I'm sure the Pats' pass rush will improve, but I know better than to bet against the Tuna. The Dolphins could still be a really good team, the Jets are bottom-feeders in the division to me and the Bills are a bag of mixed nuts (naturally, TO is the nuttiest of all). The CFL is good and helps to fill a void but the NFL is almost here and thus, things are remarkable!

Mike,

I don't know how much Raider football you watched last year, but Burgess' play really deteriorated. The main thing I noticed is that teams stopped double-teaming him. But week after week, he got stymied by the right tackle alone. Also, Burgess didn't even try to stop the run. He always took his first step to the outside and let himself get walled off, even on plays right at him.

Finally, it irked me that any time the opposing QB fell forward or scrambled near the line, Burgess always raced over to touch him so that Burgess could get credit for a sack if the QB was behind the line. He's a me-first player who showed no pride last year.

Letting him go is an all-too-rare good move for Al Davis. Burgess would have set a bad example of the young players around him.

The point is, is that this was a good move by the Pats. They just addressed one of their most glaring weaknesses. Last year the Pats defense was pretty putrid. They couldn't get teams off the field on third down, if teams got in the red zone it was close to automatic points, and usually seven. A big part of that had to do with their non-existence pass rush and cornerbacks that couldn't even cover themselves with a blanket, nevermind NFL receivers. The Pats moves look good in that they've addressed those major weaknesses. But, so far everything is on paper. Let's see how they play and come together. The point Lombardi is making is you can't win the Super Bowl between March and September, but you sure can lose it. If a team has not improved their team from last year, and that goes for the Steelers, they'll be sitting at home watching the Super Bowl this year. Just like the old adage says, "if you're not getting better, you're getting worse," And, this especially holds true in the highy-competitive and and relative parity of the NFL. The Pat's just got a whole lot better...on paper. We won't know how much better they've really gotten until September, or really November. In the very least, (barring an injury to #12) they'll be better than last year.

I'm a Pats & a BB fan, but before you go hand them the Super Bowl title, there's the matter of actually playing some games, plus the potential for injuries, plus a few issues that I think exist, but the mainstream media completely misses.

Thomas I think has been a bit of a disappointment. I don't think he's been the impact player the Pats were expecting when they signed him. Bruschi is at the end of his career and I think overall, their LB core is still a bit thin. On the DL, Seymour I think is at a crossroads. His play has declined the past 2 years, definitely due to injuries, but maybe there's more there. With Wilfork I think you have the potential for an unhappy player with all that brings -- for example maybe staying on the sidelines a bit longer than he needs to if he gets hurt. Kraft got the better of the deal with him and both sides know it.

Also offensively, Randy Moss is no longer great. He's still good, but I think he's declining and while the OL is a little above average, it's by no means great.

So the Pats still have lots of questions to answer along with most other teams.

@Daniel..not actually a Pats fan just hard to take raiders fans serious on this site(apart from the muderous one)..The thing with BB is that is there anyone better in the NFL at using the the system to improve his team? Sure there are durability questions about Burgess but they had a need and he went out and filled it at a reasonable price.

@Mike

So, Randy Moss is no longer great? What are you basing that on? Because it can't be the 2500 yards receiving and 34 TDs that he has had over the two last seasons, one which he played with a career back-up at QB.

Just to piggyback on a few comments...

1. Media bias in favor of the Pats is in the eye of the beholder. Tell a Pats fan there is such a thing and they point out how the media keeps talking about how "old" the Pats are (false) and the way they were treated during the Spy-Gate fiasco.

2. Burgess has played in a 3-4 under Rob Ryan, who learned from Romeo Crennell and Bill Belichick while with the Pats in the early part of this decade. This was not a blind move that some would make it out to be.

3. It was a "long time ago" since the Pats won last. Surely. However, it was only a year ago since they were only the second team in NFL history to go 11-5 and not make the playoffs. Only two years since they went 18-1 (yeah I know, one giant loss...). Only three years since they were about one minute away from the Super Bowl before their team, decimated by injuries and illness on defense, melted down against the Colts in the AFCCG.

4. The AFC is stacked. Pittsburgh, New England, Indianapolis (not writing them off yet), Tennessee, and San Diego all can lay claim to realistic Super Bowl aspirations. Whoever comes out of this battle royal will have earned it.

Pats also have two 2nd year corners from last years draft (2nd and 4th round) who are showing promise.

They've been awful and slow and awful slow in the secondary for the last couple years. It appears those days are over.

Belichick has finally taken drastic steps to increase the athletic ability of the secondary.

This defense has a ton of new moving parts and a lot of young coaches too. Fascinating to watch a premier defensive mind try to build a Super Bowl contending defense on the run. It really should be interesting to watch.

LOL. What a shock. Lombardi raving over the Patriots getting a guy who's been in decline for two seasons and ignoring the fact the Raiders made a good deal for a player who wasn't in their plans, and was gone after this season anyway.

Hey Mike, just once tell it like it is in regards to the Raiders will ya? If the two teams had been reversed, you'd be raving over how the Patriots got a couple of picks for a throwaway player.

In fairness to Al, I hear Cable is running a killer camp and word is Burgess wanted none of it.

dsturdy5

Ryan didn't run a 3-4 in Oakland. This will be the first time Burgess has played in it.

If the Patriots get something out of him, good for them. Fact is, he was declining and injury prone the last couple of years in Oakland, so to get a 3rd and 4th round pick for the guy was a helluva deal from where I stand. Predictably Lombardi is foaming at the mouth regarding how great a deal the Patriots made, when in reality, it's the Raiders who look to have gotten the better of this deal.

When the Raiders signed Burgess out of Philly, most media types were saying the Raiders were nuts. They claimed that they were over-paying for an unproven often injuried player.

Early on the Raiders received a couple Pro Bowl years from Burgess at what turned out to be on the cheap salary wise for that type of player.

Problem is that you claim Burgess had a bad year in 2008 because of injury, but he did start in 10 games with only 3.5 sacks. The Raiders rookie Trevor Scott which saw much less playing time recorded 5 sacks.

2007 was another bad year for Burgess with very little production with the Raiders. The fact is that the Raiders had already given his starting job away to Ellis even before they knew he was going to hold out from camp.

The best years are behind him and he is injured alot. In his prime he was a force but the past couple years his production has deopped a great deal and he is at the tale end of his playing days.

You are wrong on what the Raiders received for Burgess, the Raiders received a 3rd round pick and a 4th round pick both being in 2010. If the Pats can aquire a 5th round pick before the draft the Raiders will receive that rather than the 4th rounder but still both picks in 2010.

The Eagles offered a 3rd round pick and a player and the Raiders went with the two picks offered by New England.

To answer Darren Campbell's question:

The Pats employ the same coverage schemes that the Browns did when Bodden was there. Remember that former Patriots defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel was the Browns head coach at that time.

In fact, Bodden told the Boston Globe earlier this week that he's finding it very easy to get the hang of the defense because he remembers it from his time in Cleveland. If Bodden excelled in Cleveland's system like Football Outsiders says he did then it's likely a safe bet that he'll have a very strong season with the Pats.

@ Mike PATS fan - Moss might no longer be in the great category but with him & Gallaway split out wide that alone is a wicked combination. Who are you going to double?? As long as NE doesn't overuse the aging & ageless Joey I believe he will be very effective. Then....you have the best slot receiver in the game in Welker? It will be really interesting to see how that comes together & if it will succeed the way I'm picturing it.

@ Murder - I came away thinking it wasn't all that physical at Cable's camp. I read an article saying they had quite a few days in non-pads. I remember the players were saying how they thought this is how it should be because they wanted to learn the plays & go through the motions first before full contact. (Yeah probably the norm.) Maybe once the pads were on they stuck to it regular from that point on & Cable turned on the tempo & intensity but I didn't hear anything there. You want physical? Go to the other side of the Bay in Sing's camp. He's had full contact 2-a-days (FC2ADYS) since last Saturday. I believe with all the mediocre play we've had for years he's just trying to shake off the junk crap BS losing mentality & everyone focused back to fundamentals & playing solid ball again. I think the FC2ADYS since last SAT scheduled to go up until pre-season games is a bit too much. The injuries started to mount & finally yesterday Sing backed off & they had their FIRST non-padded practice. Singletary's still learning the best way to be effective being a Rookie HC. I give him big credit for never making the same mistake twice.

I agree a 3rd & 4th RD'er is a VERY good deal for Oakland for an aging player who's a malcontent & doesn't want to be there. I give the edge to Al & crew & for NE there's that "looks good on paper" thing again & it's a wait & see on Burgess. But kudos to NE for filling a need to strive to stay on top. This is a slightly tricky one predicting how Burgess will do when looking at his badly declining production. But my gut tells me the PATS & BB are the ULTIMATE MASTERS & one of, if not THE best in the league at using their talent properly & ALSO policing their players & such professionals in their sport that any player coming in gets motivated & polices themselves then grows from there to find life in their careers again. Yes, being a Niner's fan I'm damned jealous saying that. My theory is Burgess has the "Moss Syndrome". His lack of production in Oakland especially last year was because the team/Coaches/organization was a freakin' hellhole & disaster that had so much turmoil. Sh** working conditions. Sorry Raider fans but it's true. So with now Burgess going to the EXTREME opposite end of what a pro organization should be I believe Burgess has the potential to explode like Moss did when he found a real home with knowledgeable Coaches who are functioning organized & together to accomplish their mission of winning. (BTW for Oakland I'm a BIG FAN of the new HC Cable. He has an awesome resume. I wanted him for our OL Coach BADLY. I believe you all have the right man for the job. One HUGE KUDOS THERE....HE WAS ABLE TO RETAIN THE ABSOLUTE STUD ASOMUGHA WHEN HE COULD HAVE GOT BIG MONEY ANYWHERE IN THE LEAGUE!!!!) I'll definitely be watching to see how this plays out.

Sorry for the long post. The turbo coffee really kicked in this SAT morning. NINERS!!!!

@LAJimmy:

Burgess does have some experience as a stand up rusher in a 3-4. From Chris Gasper's report on 8/7:

"Burgess has some experience as a 3-4 linebacker playing in Oakland for former Patriots linebackers coach Rob Ryan. According to Millard, the team had a 3-4 package utilizing Burgess as a stand-up linebacker."

LOL...Daniel's a comedy act. Says the Bengals went 11-5 as recently as 2005 but the Patriots last Super Bowl win was "quite a long time ago" Uh, huh...way, way back in...uh....2005.

Hey, Daniel will be here all week. Remember to tip your waiters and be sure to try the veal!

@Daniel Take your head out of your a--.We know it must be hard being a Raider fan knowing the only time you get to see your player's talents is when they leave.

@Daniel It's time to pull you'r head out of you'r A## Im sure it must be difficult admiting you'e a raider fan knowig you only get to see the talent you'r player's have is when they leave OAKLAND .

Hi... I'm John from San Diego, ( well... living here now anyways.... )

I am a "VERY" long time N.E. Patriot fan. All my life actually. I grew up 20mins south of the old Shaffer Stadium on Rt. 1. My Dad was a season ticket holder back when they played at Fenway Park as The Boston Patriots.

Point being.... I've watch these guys for over 40yrs, & never have I been more pleased with them in my entire life. This "TEAM" has been forever changed because of 1 man who had a dream.... Robert Kraft. Without him.... one can only wonder what would've happened after Victor Kiam. Mr Kraft has brought in THE best head coach this league has ever seen. "THE EVIL GENIUS" . Coach Bill. Add that with Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Wes Weker & the rest of the cast, you are looking at "THE BEST N.F.L. TEAM TO EVER TAKE THE FOOTBALL FIELD."

Championship #4 is locked & loaded & ready for delivery this year. After #12 had to sit out last season, he'll be back w/ a vengence. If not to show the skepicts are wrong. BIG year. BIG numbers. Close if not better than 2007.

" Good Luck Patriots! ! ! " Kick ass, & take names. Bring it home again.... & again.... & again.

We ALL LOVE YOU GUYS! ! ! !