The Decline Of The Browns

Talk about falling form the top all the way down to the bottom.... Man Genius is having a rough go in Cleveland.

All good points Matt. If everyone will remember the '07 Browns were 10-6. Before last season we were tabbed as a team to look out for. We had 5 prime time games. What happened? Injuries, high expectations, a tough schedule, and bad coaching. What we really need is a tough coach that is going to put some fire under these players. These players proved that they were learning how to win from '07. Why tear it all down and start again? I think Mangini could be digging his own career grave in Cleveland with all of these moves. His only shot is to get this draft right!

Great post Matt. Even though I am a Broncos fan, I would like to see the Browns be successful. I can see them going 2-14 this season and Mangenius having a very short leash. This Organization needs a plan and quickly.

Two things stand out to me...

The owner of the Browns is clueless, it all starts (or gets screwed up) at the top. The old "fish rots from the head" theory applies here.

How Mangini gets another gig is beyond me, what did he get done in NY? He alienated everyone(not to mention a certain mentor slightly north of NY)and really didn't exactly build a great resume.

Why the owner fell for his act I'll never know, plus he hires him first and then the GM. If Mangini isn't a great coach, what makes him think he can run the personnel dept. too?

Nothing wrong with what is going on in Cleveland. Winslow was a slow slot receiver. He never blocked so he wasn't a tight end. He pushes off now because he can't get open. He has not "stretched the field" for some time now.
Edwards is going to leave the Browns after this year if not traded now. Might as well get something for him now.
Who knows about Quinn? Could be all talk.
I would love to see the Browns take Crabtree, a center, and a s/cb with the first 3 picks.

"took the club and ran away to the east coast" Seriosly Matt, they left the name, colors, AND team/individual records there for the city, UNLIKE the Colts leaving Baltimore. I HATE that whole story/debate anyway, but people tend to forget, or turn a blind eye to what the Colts did. NO im not a sour colts fan (i was 7 in 84') and i LIKE the ravens. All in all, Matt, i love your articles-keep up the good work!

Everyone talks about the 10-6 season of 2007, but that Browns team only beat one team (Seattle) with a winning record while coasting through a last place schedule.

Edwards hates Cleveland and is a goner (assuming he isn't traded) once he hits free agency. I think trading Edwards is the smart move for the Browns. Since the franchise came back in 1999, they have somehow been unable to do the two things a team in the AFC North needs to do if they want to contend for a Super Bowl...run the football and play defense.

I think Mangini can fix those issues for the Browns in a couple years...I just wonder if the fans are patient enough for that to happen.

I am amused by the concept that Braylon Edwards will not get along with Mangini, but he will get along with ...Tom Coughlin?!?

I don't understand what Mangini is doing in Cleveland. The Browns are a good offensive team. They need only to solve the qb dilemma and find a valid back up to ease the load on Jamal Lewis (and a WR to help Edwards since Stallworth will be gone for a while). On defense they need a pass rusher or two and better schemes against the run and than they'll have a good defense. Instead Winslow is gone for nothing and the same is going to happen with Edwards and probably Quinn who had just 3 games to prove he was the next Peyton Manning (Manning in his first 3 games at Indy had an "astonishing" 48.1 rating, compared to Quinn's 66.7)

Mangenius = Butch Davis the sequel.

As a Cleveland fan I can see the Browns cutting Edwards loose now because I don't think they were going to pay him big money anyway and the team is a couple years away from being competitive. Winslow was a goner even if Savage had stayed. The writing was on the wall when they drafted Rucker last year in the 4th round.

I think Quinn will stay because the NFL is a business first and the Browns will not have anyone that sells tickets without Quinn on their roster. Cleveland can win with Quinn but they have to build a great defense and running game. Quinn isn't Brady, Brees or Manning. You can't rely on him passing the ball 30 or more times a game and think you are going to win. Dominant defense plus a run game is the recipe for long term success for this franchise.

Frank: The Ravens didn't "leave the name colors, and records" by choice. They did it to settle a lawsuit they were going to lose. In point of fact, the intial press conference after the sale announced them as the Baltimore Browns. Stealing the team from Cleveland was a total dirtbag move and you can never gloss over it.

Even worse a town like Baltimore, which already knew how painful it is to lose a team, was complicit in stealing another cities club. Shame on you, and may God have mercy on your soul.

The Browns are/were not a good offensive or defensive team. The only two players who would start on most other teams are Shaun Rodgers and Joe Thomas. We need as complete an overhaul as anyone and mangini is doing it. He may or may not get it right but it needs doing and I'll give him a shot.

Let's face it - Brady Quinn was a mistake. It was a great PR move at the time, and he came on the recommendation of Charlie Weiss - an endorsment that doesn't quite have the same luster it did two years ago. Better to get what you can for him now, rather than wait for him to actually prove that he can't play.

You cannot say Quinn was a mistake. He had one solid start, hurt a finger on his throwing hand, and had two bad starts. He has the mental makeup of successful QB's and I wold argue he deserves a real shot at the position. Has not had that so far.

As a Falcons fan transplanted in Cleveland, I decided to educate myself about the Browns so I could talk to my patients at work. I've been amazed at the fact that my Falcons can overcome some poor picks by McKay (Jimmy Williams, Jamal Anderson), the lack of talent on defense, the Mike Vick saga, and the Bobby Petrino disaster on the heels of a borderline competent Jim Mora. Yet the Browns, with no certifiable busts in 4 straight drafts (Wimbley is serviceable and needs help, Thomas is terrific, Edwards can play at a high level if the QB has time, Winslow overcame injuries to be a top TE in the Dallas Clark mode, and Quinn can't be labeled a bust if he hasn't had a shot), SUCK. I mean, the organization is a disaster...

I talk to at least 3-4 Browns fans--often very knowledgeable--per weekday. I am yet to find someone thrilled with Mangini or even beyond ambivalent about Kokinis. While people were sick of Winslow's mouth and Edwards's hands and losing-score-TD antics, no one wanted them gone.

I'd love to see some good football in Cleveland. This town, with the closing steel plants, massive foreclosure crisis, gnarly winters, and having lost the team that was to become the annually-contending Ravens, deserves better. The fans are so loyal. But I think it's 2-3 more years of losing here, especially if they best they can get for 1200 yards and 16 TDs and mid-20's age is a low 2nd and a 5th. Pathetic. And don't get me started on Quinn; when that guy came off the bench when Anderson was hurt and the Browns needed every win that 10-6 season to have a shot, he led them down the field and got a field goal. Even with a drop of one of his passes by Winslow, if I recall. I know he was overrated out of ND, but he can be a QB if they put a line in front of him and run an offense that suits him (read Lombardi's article, I think, about 90% of QBs needing a system built to their abilities to succeed). But Mangini et al will never do that, and they will fail.

paulbip hit the nail on the head.

1) Winslow played in 44 of 80 games. When he wasn't hurt and busy not blocking, he made some decent plays. He's definitely not worth the money he was looking for, and got from TB. The Bucs got fleeced.

2) Braylon would walk away in FA so why not get a first round pick (and more?) now. The number of times he dropped the ball and blamed it on everyone but himself, he won't be missed.

3) Quinn... ah Quinn... a weak arm isn't going to make up for other strengths.

Great post, Matt. You've "been there, done that," so your observations should not be taken lightly.

If Eric Mangini was taking over as the CEO of a company, he would have already broken virtually every major rule of transition. He appears to have alienated, to some extent, every one of his key constituencies. Moreover, even if all of this is pure speculation, his inability to "manage the message" has unfortunately made your perceptions this fanchise's reality.

Mangini needs to address the rumor mill, which is operating on all three shifts, before he loses all support. While you never do get a-second-chance-to-make-a-first-impression (something he has to live with througout his tenure), Mangini does have an opportunity to replace all of this perception with reality. He certainly doesn't have to, but if he's smart, he will, starting with the players he has already alienated.

From there, he can address everyone else who contributes, directly or indirectly, to his success, or failure.

Then again, I could be wrong...

Give Mangini time. I like what he is doing.

The other posters have described why they got rid of Winslow and probably Edwards so I won't cover that again. As far as Quinn goes, that could be debated ad infinitum with no resolution.

I think fans will perk up after the draft. Mangini will end up with 4-5 picks in the top fifty plus at least one in the third round.

This will be the Mother of all drafts for the Browns , so wait before you criticize.

If you read what Terry Pluto of the Plain Dealer wrote, Mangini is looking for "football players." Up until now we have had prima donnas. It's time to get rid of the "players" who have such fragile feelings and go with the hard-hitting, blue-collar type of players that the original Browns featured. This cleaning house is about bringing in the right long-term attitude. With all these losing seasons it is understandable if Browns fans are not feeling patient. But that may be what is needed at this time to correct the mistakes of the past.

FRANK, "they" didn't "leave" anything. The name and colors were recovered through litigation. As unfortunate as it may be to your rationalizations, Raven fans are as guilty as Indianaopolis of cheering for a desecrated franchise. Baltimore fans cannot cheer for the Ravens and complain about the Colts without being a hypocrate.

The current Cleveland franchise is doomed to failure. Which does suit the NFL hierarchy just fine. Sticking the Cleveland fan soothes the pain of the humiliation brought to the NFL by Art Modell.

Dilfer was right. Cleveland was a dysfunctional organization before Mangini arrive. There's a saying that if you allow fans to make decisions for you, you'll soon be sitting with them up in the stands. I include the media along with the fans. Mangini is running the team. His butt is on the line if things go wrong. He doesn't need you to advise him.

Jay Thomas,

I believe it is Matt's job as a journalist to comment on situations like this, so it really is his job.

Plus, read the post again. Former Jets (who used to be his boys in New England) aren't high on the guy either.

If he wins, he proves us all wrong, but I doubt that is going to happen.

A lot of people see in Mangini what Matt hinted at. He doesn't just want to be right; he wants to be noticed. He loves the man-genius stuff. It's not comforting.

He has an eye for talent IMO. I think he can handle a draft and do it well.

Most football fans would love to see a winner in Cleveland. They just love the team so much and deserve it.

Mangini leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth. It's hard to sell team while screening movie roles.

Were it not solely about money(My opinion it is) we could see Braylon for Boldin but it the same situation and each player is limiting the other's offers.

Were I AZ, I'd try and work any other dead weight contracts the Browns' way in hopes they bite so the savings would sign up Bolden on the Cards home front and thereby improve Braylon's trade value. Addition by subtraction, etc.

Do us a favor we do you one?

What an over reaction of a column.

Mike, you did a pretty good job of taking all the "rumors" and tying them to the Winslow trade and then judging based on those rumors.

Step back, take a breath, and then wait for things to happen before you react.

I won't even get into you making half an argument and then ignoring the other half in your criticism.

Suppose I'm with the minority. I actually believe Mangini can turn this club. Is there much rhetoric? No. He says what he means. You don't have to read between the lines. READ HIS QUOTES.
Listen to his former players, including several who have JUST ELECTED to resign with him. He wants players who are (1)coachable (2) Willingly work within a system. (3) Do not have superstar ambitions.
He wants coaches who will work with in one system unlike the previous regime chich has multiple systems beginning with the GM to the dl coach. That speaks of order not chaos which is exactly what Brown's fans have observed for years. The owner saw this in the man and heard from those he trusted that he'd put order in the club house.

This Browns organization is a business first. This is the first coach to actually recognize that.
They'll not likely do better than 6-10 or 7-9 unless they get a couple of breaks but you'll be behind this guy 12 months from now and he won't be talking anymore then than he does now except you'll see tangible results on the playing field.

40year in business taught me one thing.
Say what you'll do then do what you say.
Mangini is doing just that.

@ Frank

Are you kidding me? You're going to argue with Matt's assertion that Modell “took the club and ran away to the east coast?"

Dude, so what if Cleveland got to keep the "name," the "colors," and the "individual records." I would gladly have given those up for the "players," "front office," and "Super Bowl victory" that the city of Baltimore ended up with.

If you want to whine about the Colts moving away, why don't you find an article about the Colts and post it under there? The fans of Cleveland have absolutely no sympathy for you backstabbing Baltimore fans.

Oh--and if you think the NFL did us a favor by leaving us "individual records," you're in serious denial. They not only took our team away for several years, but they set our franchise back DECADES.

I hope you've enjoyed Ozzie Newsome, Ray Lewis, Jonathan Ogden, Ed Reed, etc etc etc... they should all be in Cleveland right now, even if you don't want to admit it.

Mangini has been given the opportunity to rip the Browns up and start again because we were awful last year. He's trading players who are high profile and not everyone is going to like that but most of these players have done little to deserve said profile. Furthermore the players in question don't fit the type of team he is looking to put together.

Winslow doesn't help in the running game, misses too many games and is a distraction in the locker room.

Edwards just keeps dropping the ball, sounded off about his own fans and is unlikely to sign a new contract.

Trading both these players makes sense. I do think that Quinn is a little unlucky. He hasn't really been given a chance and now looks like he won't get it in Cleveland.

Having said that for all the support of Quinn in Cleveland a lot of teams passed on him in the draft because they didn't think he was a franchise QB. It's a little unfair to make out that Mangini is being rash in his assessment and making a blatant mistake. It's not like he's trading Peyton Manning who pretty much everyone wanted on draft day!The problem with Quinn is that he has much better trade value than Anderson and that allows the Browns to get better.

Mangini is getting a lot of criticism for making tough decisions. Some of them won't be right and it's easy to point that out now. He can hardly leave things as they are though after last season. He might be on a short lease after these moves but that is surely one of the risks of the job. Do you think he's in a worse spot then McDaniels for instance? It seems that Mangini's attitude annoys a lot of people but then so does Belichick's.

Before it's pointed out I know that Mangini has done nothing to show that he's in Belichicks league. My point is that there aren't many Head Coaches who are consistently successful who don't posses great arrogance. You need that to have the confidence to make the tough decisions that give you the potential to be great.

So far the only thing Mangini has done is trade Winslow for a couple of picks. The rest is just rumors. Other than perhaps letting the safety go what has he done wrong?

Braylon Edwards is an enigma. He has major trouble catching the ball. Who will trust him in a tight game that really means something?

All the silence from the Browns is actually good for the team. No one knows what the heck the Browns are going to do in the draft and that's a plus.

I will however have real reservations about Mangini if he trades Brady Quinn. To me that would definitely show that Mangini is on a major power trip.

Mark-

You say it is "an over reaction of a column", but then link your own blog based on politics to your name?

Kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

Mark-

You say it is "an over reaction of a column", but then link your own blog based on politics to your name?

Kind of ridiculous, don't you think?

Agree with Sonny L. that at this point, the problems in Cleveland start with ownership.

How did Learner not ask Mangini about his plan? And if that plan included trading Edwards, Winslow and Quinn all for draft picks and starting over, how does that possibly fit with his $100 million free agency spree last off-season? Aren't they completely contradictory building philosophies?

This franchise's record on 1st round picks is as dismal as any in the NFL (arguably worse than Detroit). At least recently they were finding starters: Whimbley, Thomas, Winslow, Edwards. But you judge draft classes by how many 2nd contracts you end up giving, not by their production when they are young and inexperienced winners and the amount you get back in trade.

This organization has no PROGRAM at the top. And Mingini is botching it every step of the way.

And this a Steelers fan talking (who has a brother-in-law Browns fan).

As someone who has been a Brown's fan since I first started watching football, I can assure you of one thing...the Browns will not make the playoffs during Mangina's coaching tenure. If they make it with any coach after that, it will be a herculean effort that will resemble the job done in Arizona last year.

To Lance-
Please never mention the name Butch Davis ever again...you have no right to speak of him at all. HE WAS THE ONLY COACH TO LEAD THIS TEAM TO THE PLAYOFFS SINCE THE FRANCHISE RE-OPENED. Are you dumb enough to think that any coach since or prior has done anything close to that? Davis was pressured out by management, the same management that was fired this year. Oh, and Davis only has 2 Super Bowl rings, make 2.5 Million a year at UNC, and is on his way to being one of the best college coaches.

As someone who has very, very, very strong ties to the heads of the Browns organization (been to Lerner's suite to watch games on numerous occasions) I can assure you that I have seen firsthand the reasons why the organization has failed, and it kills me to see that they are making the same mistakes now that they have in the past.

Mangina only got this job because his brother-in-law is the GM of the Cleveland Indians (Mark Shapiro, and in case you guys don't know who that is, google him and see how connected the Shapiro family is to sports business as well as Al Lerner).

The Browns are again setting themselves back 5 years by constantly playing the political game that hampers numerous NFL organizations and front offices...with the 8th easiest schedule this season watch for them to be picking with the second or third pick in the 2010 NFL Draft.

Well it looks like there is a concensus among the cleveland sportswriters that BQ will probably get traded and I agree solely on the presumption that the coach wants a full deck of draft choices come next week and the Browns need all the talent they can get their hands on.Lets reflect on the length of Mang..s. contract
this should be on everybodys mind for good and bad reasons.I think that the NFL is a graveyard for coachs and rightly so.When I read that they may take a QB at number 5 I came to the conclusion that the Browns will have the worst draft in the league this year since it will take the number years on the coachs contract to see a divisional title

While everyone likes to queue up Eric with Bill Belichick - Let us not forget the Eric has always claimed Bill Parcells as his primary influence, who was his first hire -

Eric is following the tear it down, bring his own guys approach that has been made famous by the man - The prototypical approach shown to be successful in the turning around of five different franchises by the master himself, Uncle Bill -

As for the Butch Davis ball washer here - I agree not to mention Davis with respects to Eric Mangini - It is very insulting to Eric -

Davis presided over some of the worst drafts in Browns history and is in no way an NFL caliber head coach - Coming from the University of Miami, he had the worst talent evaluation of his own players there -

Butch Davis drafted James Jackson, Andre King, Joaquin Gonzalez from Miami as the players he coached there - And Davis fell in love with Boston College runner William Green, while passing on his own Hurricane star runner Clinton Portis in the same draft -

Davis couldn't even evaluate his own guys - He passed on Ed Reed for William Green - Passed on Portis for Andre Davis - Could have easily had Reggie Wayne and Dan Morgan over Gerard Warren and Quincy Morgan with very little finagling-

Davis talked Cleveland into giving up their 2nd round pick for Kellen Winslow Jr to move up one spot - When he could moved up two spots to take the great Miami safety Sean Taylor (RIP) - In using his collegiate connections at his former coaching spot -

Butch Davis was pretty bad for the Browns and set the team back quite a bit -

My beloved Brownies were an embarrassing joke last year, and no amount of injury talk can excuse what was a pathetic, godawful team. Worse than the roster was the chemistry.

I don't like Mangini, but he's walked into a situation whereby the team could go 7-9 and he'll be patted on the back. 10-6 in 2007 was the aberration.

And to anyone who defends Butch Davis let me ask this question - "How many NFL teams came looking for him after the Browns dumped him?" And the answer: ZERO!

In a league where Mangini, Herm Edwards and even Dick Jauron get second chances, the fact that Davis never got a nibble speaks volumes for how his tenure in Cleveland was viewed.

But, he did coach the Tar Heels to one of the most thrilling victories in the long and storied history of the Meineke Car Care Bowl.

Next I'll be reading that Romeo Crennel deserved another season at the helm.

Interesting read and some good points. I will make my judgements the start of the 2011 season. Until then I need to give Mangini his time.

Quinn isn't gonna be the next Rick Mirer, is he? I know he was overrated at ND (most of them are) but is he really not a good as they thought he was gonna be or...what's the deal?

I am a Browns fan, and season ticket holder and I think my comments reflect most of what I hear each and every day from other Browns fans ..

??

We just don't know. We have been through this too many times to get excited (it hasn't worked out yet), but in our hearts know it wasn't going to work they it was going. If Mangini and Kokinis are on the same page and make some good decisions, it will work. If not, it won't.

On the trades/rumors.
- Winslow, was my favorite player. He played with the passion I have wanted to see from browns players since their return. However, he clearly is no longer a threat to stretch the field. Struggled to make a difference in 2008, and is held together with glue. His PI penalties were unbelievable and in every case cost the browns in big situations. I think he will have a good year or two with TB, but a 6yr contract! Also, hard to imagine him dealing well with the qb situation in tb.

- braylon. Give the guy credit.. he donated a $1M to Cleveland schools. What other NFL player do you hear doing that? However, he didn't only drop balls, he dropped TD's in critical game situations. Finally, he just lacked toughness it seemed. I can't think of big 3rd down catches, or plays over the middle. He is big play wr, but not a "go-to" guy. Browns needed a "go-to" player when the game is on the line. He might become, but if what we hear is true he wouldn't sign long term anyway. Also, provides a job opp for folks like me (5.6 40yr anyone interested), b/c nobody else is there to play wr.

- QB .. the worst of all the debates b/c we have the least information. Most in Cleveland think BQ will cure cancer, solve the economy probs, and lead browns to sb. I am not sure why, but that is the general feel. I hope, if he dos stay he will do all those things. However, my gut feeling is that he is 20-26 guy with 212yds 1td and 1int each week. We had that before (tim couch), and I would rather have a qb that can make plays to win the game. In the end though, until we see more than 3 games against bad defenses we wont know.

- Overall, browns need playmakers on o and d. We need sacks, turnovers, and def td's. On offense we need reliable players that make plays when we need them. We need to be the type of team that gets 3rd and 2 late in games running the ball. We need to match the intensity of toughness of the teams in our division, and we need to win. For the last 10yrs we have pretended to be that, but never accomplished it. Trade everyone if that is what you need to do, but you better be right.

It probably wouldn't hurt Mangini and kokinis to do a little pr work, but I dont care if they are the worlds worst with pr if they can coach and acquire talent

Ya don't need to have strong arm to be successful QB in the NFl. NFL QB have to be smart and leadership skill that can lead his team, can run and make certain passes.

How many times a QB throw long(50 yards) in a game? 2 or 3 times

I'm OK Browns trade away KW2 and BE, but they will make HUGE mistake if they trade Brady Quinn

First of all, BQ isn't going anywhere. It would be assinine to move Quinn in favor of a Qb that, while he may be good eventually, has 13 starts in his college career (Sanchez). To those that question Quinn's arm strength you are deluded. He isn't Bret Favre but Quinn can make all the throws necessary to run the NE/Weiss/Daboll system. He is a smart quarterback, rarely makes a mistake with the ball, and commands respect in the huddle. He has more field awareness than Couch and Anderson combined. Quinn will be a winner in the NFL sooner rather than later.


Secondly, the trade of Winslow was addition by subtraction. His production was woefully lacking, both due to injury and infection and his lack of focus on the field. I expect more of an emphasis on the running game and Heiden/Royal are head and shoulders above Winslow when it comes to blocking.

Thirdly, Braylon Edwards was over-rated coming into the league and is exactly the same reciever he was at scUM--a couple of acrobatic catches followed by lackadaisical route running, missed blocking assignments, and his obligatory drop or two each game. I don't live anywhere near Cleveland so the tantrum he threw when he said he was going to quit giving to charities in the area means little to me, but the fact that he vocalized his frustration by saying what he did proves to me that he's not a very smart individual. Still, he has talent, and is the only legitimate threat on offense right now. To trade him and force yourself into drafting Crabtree or Maclin would be foolish.

Lastly, all of these trade rumors are exactly that--rumors, most of which have been started or hinted at by the local Cleveland media--which is miffed that they have had their access to the team cut off. When the national media reads what the local hacks dream up they in turn give the rumors legs by irresponsibly repeating them, which is why Browns fans have been forced to read fictional blogs/articles of this nature.

Thus far, Mangini has traded ONE player and received excellent value for him in return. Allowing the overpaid Kevin Shaffer and Sean Jones to walk as well as not resigning the less than talented Andra Davis is NOT what I'd call blowing up the team and starting over.

The Browns were probably not as good as their 10-6 record in '07, but they certainly weren't as bad as their '08 record either. I believe they were an 8-8 team last year that got snakebit by some serious injuries and a coaching staff that lost it's control over the team. If that's the case, hitting a home run on their 3 first day picks can get this team back on a winning track immediately if not sooner.

I think we need to point out that the offseason is incomplete and that this team has yet to play a game. I also think you are taking speculation and treating it as fact.

First, I firmly believe that the Winslow trade is a good one. In my opinion he is the same player as Jeremy Shockey, but with his injury risk, even more of a gamble.

Winslow has played less than half of the games in his 5 years in the NFL. His knees have been badly damaged due to his motorcycle accident, and he is a very, very poor blocker.

While he makes some exciting plays and has some great moments, you have to ask yourself if he actually helps the team win. The Browns played their best two games of 2008 without Winslow. They beat the Giants badly on Monday Night Football and then beat the Jaguars.

Winslow also was demanding a new contract, and in my opinion a 2nd rounder, a 5th rounder, and a ton of cap space not allocated to Winslow is big. Keep in mind they can probably get Eric Wood with the 2nd rounder(a starting center) and sign about 3 or 4 players for the same price as Winslow; including Robert Royal, who can actually block and scores more in the redzone than Winslow.

As for Quinn, any trade rumors regarding him are media speculation. I don't know where you hear that Anderson is preferred; they have said it will be a competition and all inside sources I have seen said they value Quinn more than Anderson.

As for Edwards, he has 1 year left on his contract and has had 1 great season and three mediocre ones. He has expressed a desire to move. I agree that he is a talent, but if you can get Crabtree and then trade Edwards for Hixon, a 1st, and a 3rd as opposed to him walking in a year, do you do it?

I think this organization does have a plan and it is unfair to rip them until the offseason is finished, and until we see results on the field.

God knows the previous regimes that had double digit losses in 7 of 10 seasons didn't get it done.

Matt,
Your first mistake was talking to Browns fans. Most of them loved Phil Savage, and thought Anderson was actually a solid QB. How does that look now? The man who should be getting the blame for all this is Savage, not Mangini. You don't blame the janitor for cleaning up the mess, unless you are the coach of the Browns and aren't all cuddly with the media.

As for hiring the coach before the GM, how did that working out in New England? I think the position of GM as originally envisioned is largely obsolete in today's NFL. This is a coaches league and the best teams are ones where the coach is either in charge or is certainly deeply involved.

There ended up being 20 million guaranteed reasons to trade Winslow and there will end up being even more for Edwards, who will get an even bigger contract. Neither player is worth that much investment of resources.

The Browns are going to have to take a step backwards to move fowards. Savage used to complain all the time that when he got there, the cupboards were bare. When he left, he took the cupboards with him.

The downfall of the Browns started with the retention of Romeo Crennel in 2006. It was compounded by the failure to move Anderson for value last offseason. It was topped off by giving away all our draft picks for very little return besides Rogers. We only had 4 draft picks left coming into this season and had next to nothing to show for those trades.

No, the downfall of the Browns began when Phil and Romeo were hired, and neither was truly qualified for the positions they held.

The problem has been, and remains - Randy "Slow" Lerner.

He had Scott Pioli for the taking. According to a local sportscaster2 days ago with 30 years in Cleveland, his sources told him that Pioli went in and told Slow Lerner that he only had 3-4 good players. Mangini went in and told him he could "coach 'em up." Mangini got the job. Then Mangini looked at film a long time, and then told Slow Lerner that the team only had 3-4 quality players and needed to be blown up.

Mangini is a snake.

So instead of the expansion Browns having a guy with over 10 years of front office experience and having played a role in the turning around of 2 franchises (Jets with Parcells, Pats with Belichick), the expansion Browns have two yuppies turning around the team - something they have never done before - through the draft - something they have never run.

Slow Lerner has the expansion Browns in circles. He had the hutzapah to say a few months ago that he thinks of football every day, and he's getting better. Here is his record:

33-63
4-12 year one
4-12 year six
5 out of 6 last place finishes

Butch Davis?! I had to beat my head against the wall to even mention him.

I don't know about Mangini. I see some good points and some bad points. But I'm willing to give him a chance. He is coaching his 2nd team so he has to make good.

I realy liked Edwards but he thinks the fans don't like him because he is from Michigan, not because of all the dropped balls. See ya.

Really liked Winslow but they did a great job in that trade. A big plus for the new guys.

I really have on opinion on Quinn. But the coach has to have a QB he feels comfortable with and so that's for him to decide.

But I have to say seeing anyone who is a Brown's fan supporting Butch Davis . . . gotta go hit my head on the wall again.

Many of my points have already been touched on, but I wanted to bring up the Mangini/Kokinis decision by Lerner. My theory is that once ownership realized they were not going to get Pioli, they turned their attention to Kokinis. BUT, as his team was in the playoffs at the time management couldn't have anything official come of the meeting they did have. I think that Kokinis wanted to work with Mangini and helped push the decision to hire Mangini. Cleveland got antsy thinking they had to nail down the coach before other teams started talking to him, although I don't think there was much interest to begin with. I really think the order of the hiring...coach before GM was a matter of semantics. The Browns would get fined by the NFL if the truth came out that they knew they'd be hiring Kokinis when the Ravens were done in the playoffs...right? Tampering? So they proceeded with hiring the coach Kokinis wanted since Mangini was done in NY.

As a Giant's fan, I have to wonder whether it makes any sense to trade for Edwards before the draft. As much as I'd like our receiver situation to be sewn up I'm not sure why they'd do anything hasty. With Cleveland looking a little desperate and the possibility that Crabtree might slip down on some draft boards it seems that a smart GM, and Jerry Reese is a smart GM, might be better served t bide his time and see what develops. Especially with the Eagles likely bowing out of the receiver trade front.

This is a great feature. I'm a Pats fan, I suppose you could supplement that with the fact that I heavily dislike Mangini, and I would personally like to hear more about how Mangini has changed.

From my perspective Mangini went to the Jets to prove something when, really, he hadn't built anything on his own in New England that needed to be legitimized. Charlie Weis, people thought, developed Brady. Romeo Crennel was an amazing defensive coordinator. Scott Pioli helped build the team. Josh McDaniels led the single season most prolific offense in NFL history. Where does Mangini's legacy reside? In the fact that he worked alongside these other people.

At the end of the day he studies under Belichick. The trail ends there. You can win in the NFL with good players and good assistants and hide out for a little while - as Mangini did in NY. I think this was a poor decision by the Browns. If the last coach didn't pan out, why hire one of his former assistants who also didn't pan out?

Sonny,

i am not sure how you can create crennel as an "amazing defensive coordinator" for the achievements of the new england defense, ignoring the abject failure of the browns under his tenure to field anything resembling a good defense, while simultaneously discrediting mangini for the achievements of the new england defense, which he also coordinated, ignoring a couple pretty good jets defenses under his tenure. the jets upset of pittsburgh (2007?) during which ben got sacked 8 times seems a fairly good example. i am not so much disagreeing about crennel as pointing to the logical inconsistency of your assertions.

likewise, you both credit and discredit weis in the same phrase, which begs the question: are you saying he did or did not develop brady? how is mcdaniels achievement in "leading the single-season most prolific offense in NFL history" not a case of "win[ning] in the NFL with good players and good assistants and hid[ing] out for a little while" consisdering he had brady, moss, welker, etc and is raising red flags in denver? "Scott Pioli helped build the team"; did everyone in the organization not help build the team? what is the definition of team?