Tavern talk: Finalizing our blue list

I missed on time, so I'll repost here:

Have you not realized that Chad Johnson has changed his name to Ochocinco? I know there are only a few Bengals fans on these boards defending themselves and their team (nor should they really)... but the Ocho is a top 10 WR in the NFL, and even if you don't agree to leave him out of the top 20 is ludicrous. I understand you may not like him personally and you may think he disrupts a team, but the fact is that he is an elite player.

You asked for stats to back it up... I'll oblige with some research:

1. From 2003-2008 (5 full seasons) - the Ocho had at least 87 catches, at least 1274, and at least 7 TDs ... he AVERAGED - 92.4 catches, 1374 yards, and 8.6 TDs per season.

2. He led the AFC in receiving yards for 4 consecutive seasons.

3. In the one season we seem to be dissing him for (last year) he: a) injured an ankle? in the preseason; b) played the entire season with a torn labrum; c) played 12 of the 16 games with a backup QB who couldn't throw it more than 10 yds downfield; and d) a terrible offensive line.

4. I'm not saying any of the players on your list don't deserve to be there, but let's look at the stats of the career years of some of your blue-chip WRs and keep in mind what Chad Ochocinco AVERAGED FOR 5 years (before last year's debacle that was the entire Bengals team): (Catches/Yds/TDs)

Evans (2006) 82/1292/8
V. Jackson (2008) 59/1098/7
A. Bryant (2008) 83/1248/7
R. White (2008) 88/1382/7
Jennings (2008) 80/1292/9

The Ocho's average seasons are better than their career years (4 of which occurred last year and may be a sign of something or may be a fluke)

5. Have to admit he's looked great in camp and the preseason so far and there is no reason to expect he won't have a huge year in 2009 (barring a C. Palmer injury*)

*and before we go saying that he needs Carson Palmer, only two of your blue chip receivers (Calvin Johnson and Lee Evans) didn't have an elite QB last year. Bryant had Garcia who has made a lot of receivers rich.

Appreciate the posts and effort putting together such an exhaustive list and am looking forward to some information as to why Chad was left off even your 'almost blue' llist


Just to clarify.... your top 11 guys are solid, but I still believe currently that Ochocinco belongs firmly in the discussion. Before last year's mess, he easily would've been in your top 8.

In regards to Chuck Woodson...nice.

Not sure why you have the man love for Lee Evans?? I would never consider Lee Evans a blue chipper in the company of those other receivers.

I knew The Mighty Green and Golds fan base would help you see the light, Micheal.

GO PACK GO!!!

Who is C. Johnson on the WR list? Surely, it's not Chad Ochocinco!?! He is definitely not blue after his performance last year (although I'm sure that the 3 Bengal fans out there were blue because of him!). I questioned Vincent Jackson on the list, but he is surely better right now than Ocho!

Megatron

The C. Johnson on the list is more than likely Calvin Johnson.

Great list Michael. Just one question - any explanation for why so few interior O-linemen made the list? Seems like the C/G positions are far underrepresented.

Does this reflect your thinking that most premium O-lineman play tackle? Or do you just think the league has a dirth of blue players at these positions now (not sure who I would add off the top of my head... maybe Jeff Saturday)?

C. Johnson is Calvin... who obviously is a blue chipper, because he's probably the best receiver in the league.

However, to say Vincent Jackson is better than Ochocinco is really pushing it. See my post above. There are plenty of reasons for people not to like Chad, but he still is an elite WR.


And yes, I'm a Bengals fan, and yes, I'm angry he assisted in killing the '08 season, but to dismiss him after just one lousy year as a team and a player is a little premature.

Steven Jackson, anyone? Granted, most of the rest of his team sucks, and you mention durability, but he still managed to pull off a year comparable to LT2's, while injured. Not sure how you can call him almost blue.

I knew The Mighty Green and Golds fan base would help you see the light, Micheal.

GO PACK GO!!

No doubt.:rolleyes: I am sure they also persuaded him on Rodgers as well. How can Rodgers be a blue chip after one year and Matt Ryan isn't? This time last year everyone was still unsure about Aaron just like Matt. Ryan's numbers may not have been better, but at least he went to the playoffs.

Champ Bailey?

If you're including 2 punters, shouldn't you also be including 1 or 2 kickers?

C. Johnson = Calvin Johnson

Calvin

@jhu12 and @richard

If you don't know about Calvin Johnson, WR Det. you may consider paying attention to the NFL.

Having Evans on there instead of Anquan Boldin is laughable.

C. Johnson is Calvin Johnson.

@jhu12
Ocho Cinco does not deserve to be on this list. If we're going back to 2003 you could easily make arguments for Harrison, Holt, Owens and Bruce too. While he was stuck in a terrible offense last year with no quarterback, he didn't do anything to help the team. He's incredibly inconsistent, disappears in big games, and is the first player to quit when things go bad.

He has a great chance this year to prove himself now that Housh is gone and Carson is back but you can be sure if things start off slow, he'll be the first to pout on the sidelines.


Still wish Bob Sanders and Lee Evans would come off that list. Hines Ward on the downside of his career brings more than Evans.

Ochocinco doesn't belong. If he has a rebound year? Maybe. But someone who just gives up and does what he wants and isn't a team player doesn't belong.

C Wood is a pimp. He comes to play every week and makes plays. I wouldn't take anyone else.

how could you even think its chad? it's calvin.

Eric Green - Because Aaron is a 5th year veteran and has always shown those skills. There's not reason to believe he'll have the second year fallout. Ryan, while he played well, needs to do it a little bit longer. I don't think playoffs has anything to do with anything. This is a "player" list, not a "team" list.

You know, the great God Belichik [who we all know you worship] has been quoted often stating that every year Aaron smith gets his pro bowl vote. What about it?

Quote: Not sure why you have the man love for Lee Evans?? I would never consider Lee Evans a blue chipper in the company of those other receivers.

If you ever watched him live you would understand. His only failing is having crap QBs.

Romo!????!!!!!???? Call me when this putz wins a big game.

Dwayne Bowe should make 'almost blue'. His first two years in the NFL: 156 catches 2017 yards and 12 touchdowns.

Vincent Jackson has 130 catches for 2233 yards and 16 touchdowns for his four-year CAREER.

Are you catching what I'm throwing? C'mon. Take a look.

@Eric Green

Ahh yes, the inevitable Rodgers/Ryan debate.

You're right. Ryan went to the playoffs all by himself. Give me a freekin' break. Like it's Rodgers' doing that he had no running game and a horrible defense. Ryan had the benefit of Turner and a respectable defensive unit. Ryan is a talent, but he had a bunch of help "going to the playoffs".

Missed my chance to post, but two Falcons-related comments:

1. There's no way Koenen doesn't warrant a blue. His hangtime--indoors and out--led to an NFL record for lowest PR total yards. And check the film: many of those weren't fair catches, they were 48 yard boomers that were still in the air long enough for a first-man gunner tackle. He's not great, but good enough at angled kicks, plus he's a better than average kickoff specialist and can hit some FG from >50 yards in a pinch. Blue!

2. In a year, you'll have two new "almost blues" for the Falcons: Turner, who is not a complete back (can't catch or run most RB routes) will slow against better defenses and drop out of your top 10, as much as I love his style. And Lofton, now playing 3-down MLB, is already as good when he's on the field as Mayo, because he has better reactions and doesn't tackle guys 8 yards downfield. In two years, Jerry, Owens, and Sidbury will add 1-3 more almost blues, too. Dimitroff will miss on some, but he's doing great things on the whole in the A-T-L.

Falcon Pride, and let's get to the season already!

This is a little off topic, but this is the only place I could think of where I'd possibly be answered.

I was looking at sack numbers, and was starting to wonder if sacks allows/pass protection had any effect on a quarterback's performance. I thought of a great example. All I had to do was look at Jay Cutler's 07 season compared to 08. In 07 he had a horrendous line, and was sacked at 5.5% rate. Last season, thanks to Ryan Clady and Ryan Harris, they gave up just 12 sacks (11 to Cutler) and Cutler's sack rate fell to just 1.8%. So, you'd naturally think that meant he had better pass protection/more time to throw and his performance would rise. But actually, 07's numbers were actually a little better (per pass attempt), when he presumably had less time to throw. If pass protection is so important and the LT is so valued, why didn't the superior line play in 08 lead to a rise in productivity for Cutler? Where did the value in the line's pass protection show up (if any), if it didn't effect Cutler at all? Anybody can take a stab at this question, and if Mike Lombardi reads this comment, maybe he could answer me. Perhaps it's interesting enough to write a column about. If not, but Mr. Lombardi would still like to help me understand my question, please email me at bhartsell89@yahoo.com. Thanks!

Mchael Griffin isnt one of the safeties? 1st hes the best safety out of the 2007 draft class. Laundry is 1 dimensional in the pro game (even thought he is an athletic freak) and nelson is afraid to play the run and hit..Griffin can lay the hat down and defend wr's te's and rb's. he also was 2nd in the league in INTS and has shown so far in his career to be consistent and doesnt miss games due to injuries (bob sanders)..griffin is atleast the 4th best safety even though i believe him to be the 3rd behind reed and polamalu..he is obviously the heir apparent to the great safeties in the league. but dont be confused he's already arrived...PUT GRIFF ON THE LIST!

Woodson to the Blue list! In the midst of this world's swirling, constant chaos and disruption, a smidgeon of sanity, a restoration of order. Ah, blessed serenity as I chew the Cheerios!

I'm glad this list doesn't have a 4-3 assumption. If you're a fan of a team that runs a 3-4, you know how a lineman that can can take on 2-gaps might not have the same stats a 4-3 1-gap has, but be a true blue-chip player.

Thanks for the list, Mike, but suggestion -- could you note the team and the player's full name, rather than just a bunch of last names and the occasional initial? I'm not sure who some of these guys are.

There is not a coach in the league who would take Clinton Portis over Frank Gore. also way too premature on Forte.

Antonio Bryant?

Rodgers couldn't ride his RB like Rodgers could, though. And their defense was a lot better. Green Bay couldn't get pressure to the QB at all and that resulted in QBs sometimes getting nearly 10 seconds in the pocket. It was quite awfull.

Rodgers did very well. Especially behind such a porous O-line. He put up better numbers than Ryan, while Ryan had a better O-line, better RB and better overall defense. I'll give the nod to Rodgers on receivers, as Atlanta is having some depth problems.

As to the list, good job. Can't disagree with a whole lot on here. I'm pleasantly surprised to see Jenkins make this list at DE.

Kotion,
So what if he has been in the league for five years. He had only been in a couple of games and really hadn't shown anything.

Aaron and Kotion,
I agree that the playoffs shouldn't make him blue, but going to the playoffs matter for a QB. Romo is being dogged because he hasn't won a playoff game. Big Ben is considered elite, because he has two SB title just like every other SB winning QB. My point was that neither of them should be considered blue after one year unless they had a Kurt Warner first SB year.

Aaron,
You obviously only watch the Packers. The Falcons defense was worse than the Packers. If it wasn't for Abraham, then they might as well have brought out a high school team.

Jenkins at DT and DE?

mayo...ha....so obvious michael...

Agree with the above poster re: Evans. I'd put V. Jackson before Evans any day of the week.

Safety - Chris Hope?

Agree with all else pretty much... ILB S. Tulloch has been left off your list, I believe, though.... and "specialist" former Titan Chris Carr, now a Raven... He may not have returned any for touchdowns, but he put his team in the best starting field position in the League last year. I hate that he's a Raven. Biggest mistake Titans made this year was letting THAT guy go.

Great list and great job with the adjustments, I really enjoyed reading these.

The only major disagreements I have are: I don't think Antonio Pierce is a blue-chip LB and I do think Anquan Boldin is a blue-chip WR.

Would love to see you put together the All-Decade Team.

How about Aaron Kampan. If still a DE would he be blue? Position change to OLB knocks him down?

Where's Lance Briggs?

Mike, I guess you were simply trying to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Therefore, I won't even attempt to document why certain players should have been included, and some that are on the list shouldn't have been. Let me just say, when you have a player on your list in a position different than what he even plays--Demarcus Ware--then I rest my case.

are you now proud of yourself mister Lombardi?
To name the best players? Don't you have any pride or self esteem left. Don't you feel miserable, numb and unhappy?

I don't see how you can not have Ray Lewis on your list of blue chip linebackers. Big name, big player, great leader, great teammate, consumate professional. Him and Peyton Manning are actually the first 2 players I thought of for this list (ironically, both are getting up there in age).

I am guessing that the only knocks against him is that he is getting old. So if you are looking for the future, Lewis doesn't fit.

Wes Welker should be on that list above Smith, Marshall, Evans, and Jennings

Umm really people? C. Johnson is not Chad Ochocinco, but the one and only Megatron CALVIN JOHNSON the idea that you needed to ask the question begs many more questions be asked about your football knowledge

Anquan Boldin stats are very comparable to L.Fitz. He should be in the 10 ten, with the omission of R. White